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Part 1 - SUMITOMO Fumihiko and CHO Hyesu: Experiments for Conviviality

Cho Hyesu
October 11, 2024

In this enlightening dialogue between curators Fumihiko Sumitomo and Hyesu Cho, we explore personal histories, curatorial practices, and the interconnectedness of art, society, and the environment. The interview is structured into two parts: the first examines hidden narratives in the artistic process and the evolving role of museums, while the second focuses on food and agriculture as mediums for community engagement and artistic expression.

Fumihiko reflects on his journey from media art to regional projects in Japan, highlighting the influence of local communities on his work. Hyesu shares her experiences curating projects that blend art with activism, using food to bridge cultures, and exploring themes of migration, identity, and feminism. Together, they emphasize the importance of creating spaces for individuals—artists, curators, and community members—to share their stories, fostering personal and collective understanding.

This interview, part of the Curator on Curator series, thoughtfully explores how art and curatorial practices can deepen social engagement and highlights the role of collaboration in bridging divides.

This conversation was conducted at the Sumitomo Laboratory of the Tokyo University of Arts in September 2024.

 
Image of Mooa Kang in her studio Photo credit: Mark Ramdarass

Image of Sumitomo Fumihiko (left) and Cho Hyesu (right) at the Sumitomo Laboratory of Tokyo University of the Arts (Sep 2024).


What Conversation is? Connecting personal experiences?


Cho Hyesu: I have recently developed an interest in activities that do not appear in an artist's official history, particularly in how curators interpret those activities. This perspective may also apply to various art professionals, including curators. Significant events or activities can reveal their ways of thinking, but these often do not manifest through their works or exhibitions; instead, they remain scattered in an unfinished form. Interviews can sometimes serve as a window into these overlooked aspects. Occasionally, during research, one might encounter activities that even the artist doesn’t remember, or discover statements from old interviews that provide valuable insights into understanding their approach to their work. Since academic papers or exhibitions tend to focus on a single theme, many other facets are inevitably pruned away.

Sumitomo Fumihiko: It's a difficult question. There are things in everyone's life that they don't want you to touch too much. So, if you know the person personally, you may talk about painful things such as the loss of a family member or an illness, but it is not necessarily a good idea to write about it in an article or reflect it in an exhibition project. On the other hand, if you tell the person about the experience and they agree that it may have an impact on the work, I think it is a good idea. 

Hyesu: As you mentioned, one should not delve into aspects that the other person may not want to share. However, what I actually want to convey is that individuals can often discover aspects of themselves that they may not even realize.

I find myself increasingly focused not only on the artwork itself but also on the individuals who create and engage with it. This observation and understanding can occur even when not directly related to the exhibition. I also maintain a critical stance toward the tendency to interpret everything as art, whether exhibitions or public projects, nevertheless, uncovering the hidden stories in between can be crucial to understanding the person, beyond just their career or fragmented pieces of work. The people I am interested in are largely those who possess a strong awareness of and engagement with society. Therefore, understanding these individuals also means, for me, understanding society itself.

I was drawn to the word "convive" in the title on your research lab's homepage. Although I haven’t followed your projects from the very beginning, I know that during your university years, you were interested in music and film. After that, you developed an interest in media and technology, participating in international biennales. Following this, you worked on an art project involving the local community in Maebashi. At the same time, when I look at your research and the content of your classes, I see that you have been contemplating colonialism, continuing your work on postwar Japanese art, and, more recently, discussing matters related to the natural environment.

Fumihiko: Since I do art projects in collaboration with farmers, yes, I think a lot about the natural environment, or about living creatures and the land.

Hyesu: While each theme may appear to change when viewed separately, they actually reflect changes within you as an individual, so ultimately, I am sure that everything is interconnected. I would love to hear about that connection this time. I feel that this is also related to the name of your lab.

Fumihiko: I see. So you were asking about the relationship between personal experiences and public work such as research or art.
It is true that people tend to think that I am doing something completely unrelated. But, as you said, they are connected. But I don't know if I can answer your questions right away, so I'll try to talk about them in order.



Personal history of interest and attitude


Fumihiko: When I was in my 20s, I studied art history, but I really liked movies and music, and I didn't limit myself to fine art in terms of what kind of work I would do in the future. But I started working at a small art center, so I have been working as a curator since 1994-95. That was when the Internet was just beginning to permeate society.
I didn't have a computer when I was a student. So I know what it was like before computers.
With the advent of Windows 95, everyone began to own their own personal computers, and I was not the only one, but I think many people were interested in how technology would affect society. It was a time when people were quite optimistic and excited about technology with the hope that it might change the world. But at the same time, I was very influenced by the media criticism of Geert Lovink and others. Listening to what they were saying, I began to think about the negative effects of technology, rather than how it would make our lives more convenient and enjoyable. I found this complex situation fascinating, with its mixture of hope and criticism.

So, as I looked back through history, I naturally thought about technologies that have made living creatures and humans unhappy, such as weapons and pesticides. At that time, not many people in the art field were paying attention to such technology and art practices, so I was fortunate to get a lot of work.

The next change was that I started to get involved with Asian art. In 1997, when I was 26 years old, I went to China for the first time, and in 2002, when I was 31, I went to Korea for the first time. Until then, I had always thought of art mainly in terms of the West, so I was shocked.
I realized how little I knew about Asia. Not only was I unaware of Chinese and Korean society, but I had to think about the history of Japan's colonial period, and although people in China and Korea did not point out to me that I did not know about it, I saw descriptions of it in history museums, and when I talked to people, I learned that there are still some words in Korean that came from the Japanese, and I found the past of colonization in small events. In this way, I began to wonder what the art I had studied was all about. But I still continued to go to the Venice Biennale and Documenta, read English-language media, and so on. So while my framework of thinking may not have shifted significantly, I wanted to play a role that would allow me to understand both. I thought that the concept of art created by Western culture was important, and on the other hand, if someone from Asia offered me a job, I would give it priority and not turn it down. I believed that there was a great deal to be gained from the experience of working directly with Asia. That is why, in my thirties, I often went to Korea and China to organize exhibitions of small to large scale.

Hyesu: After some time, will you begin to work on a regional art project in Maebashi?

Fumihiko: Yes, I was a juror for the Interactive Art category at Ars Electronica in 2005, and it was around that time that I began to move away from so-called media art. People felt that they didn't need special equipment or space anymore, like in the 1990s.
Technology was also attractive in that it encouraged people who did not have a specialized education in art to express themselves. So I was interested in the fact that it was de-centering art. As an extension of that, when I became the director of a public art museum and became involved with local people, I kept thinking about why art museums were necessary for people who had no exposure to art and no education, and what art meant to local people.

Hyesu: You’ve gone through many changes over time. It seems that personal interests are born from layers of accumulated experiences. I wanted to ask you about this because I feel that by hearing your answer, I might be able to reflect on and make sense of the things that have felt disconnected within myself as well.

In my case, it started with literature and feminism. During my university years, I learned about literature from writers like KIM Hyesoon and HAN Kang. I was hooked on their literature in high school and read all their works, though, at the time, I didn’t realize they were addressing femininity. It was around my third year of university when I started to put labels like feminism and gender in the areas of my interest. During my time at the art university from 2013 to 2017, new feminist movements in South Korea that spread via the internet, #MeToo, and issues of sexual violence in the art industry were major topics of discussion. In 2015, I formed a feminist club with friends at university and became active in it. Later, as I began reflecting on the relationship between humans and animals, my interest in colonialism expanded.

At the time when I wanted to learn more about colonialism and art, I felt it would be better to study in Japan. At that time, I was greatly influenced by Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak. Seeing Spivak, who was born in India, engage in decolonial practices in English made me vaguely think that I wanted to go to Japan. I had some doubts about why so many Koreans went to the U.S. or the U.K. to study colonialism.
I wrote my undergraduate paper on the peculiarities found in nude paintings during the Japanese colonial era through the lens of Homi Bhabha’s concept of ambivalence. I can't go into all the details here, but I believe it reflects my interest in the ghostly aspects of the body in the context of colonialism.

I am currently part of Shimizu Tomoko’s lab for my PhD, specializing in gender, animal, and media studies. However, at the point when I was looking into labs for my master’s program, I became interested in the projects related to colonialism and Asian fieldwork in your lab. This is also related to my master's thesis, which analyzes the bodily expressions of MARUKI Toshi, who holds an important position in the post-war history of Japanese art. I feel that my interest has now expanded beyond femininity itself to the otherness that can be expressed through it.

Separate from my personal interests and research, I’ve also had several opportunities to work on international projects related to specific regions. While those experiences were interesting, I’ve often contemplated the gap between my own independent research or exhibitions and the concept of locality as discussed in these projects. This is something I continue to reflect on.

Fumihiko: Recently, I and students visited a museum that tells the history of the “Zainichi” Korean community in Japan, whose collection was burned in an arson attack by a young man with discriminatory attitudes. It was a museum with strong ties to the community and an opportunity to think about decolonizing practices. I was particularly interested in hearing what you felt.


Utoro Peace Memorial Museum, Uji City, Kyoto Prefecture, Japan


Utoro research. The original residences of the residents remain around the newly established memorial and housing facilities. (July 2024)


Hyesu: Yes, we recently visited the Utoro Peace Memorial Museum in Kyoto. The Utoro Zainichi community was formed during Japan's colonial rule and has continued to suffer severe discrimination even after the war ended. It wasn't until 1987 that the area had access to basic infrastructure like water and sewage systems. Today, thanks to the combined efforts of Japanese civilian support and the South Korean government, the infrastructure has improved, and land issues have been somewhat resolved, allowing for the construction of the memorial museum and communal housing. However, the 2021 arson attack on Utoro village demonstrates that hate and discrimination still persist.

The young man who committed the arson had only learned about Utoro's existence a few days prior to the incident and believed that Zainichi Koreans were the cause of what he saw as "reverse discrimination" against Japanese people. I think this incident reflects the global rise of right-wing extremism.

Though the facility is referred to as a "Museum" in English, in Japanese and Korean, it is called a "Memorial Facility," which places more emphasis on remembrance and reflection. One particularly striking aspect of the museum is that it lacks a dedicated curator. While this has made organizing the archive materials a slow process, it also allows the space to function as a central hub for the local community, unrestricted by the typical roles of a museum. For instance, the courtyard of the Utoro Peace Memorial Museum is often used for basketball games or BBQ parties. I was deeply moved by the people who are active in that community.

On the way back, we discussed the pros and cons of having a formal curator and a well-organized archive system, didn't we? Would the residents still feel as connected to the space if it became more institutionalized? It's a difficult question. Seeing historical documents behind glass and feeling that they are your own story is not easy. Spaces like "museums" often have a tendency to distance people from the weight of serious issues, making them feel like someone else’s problem. Even though my own family history is intertwined with that of the Zainichi Koreans, the experience of visiting Utoro felt completely different from studying it as an academic subject or historical material.

When working on art projects in regions with histories of conflict or trauma, I approach it with a great deal of caution. As I mentioned earlier, I am also wary of the dangers of thinking that "everything can be made into art."

Fumihiko: I think it is a colonialist attitude to create an art museum that is not a product of daily life and think it will be of use to the people who have lived there. I think that without thinking critically about this, it will be impossible to create a relationship between the museum and the community.


Accessibility of museums and “emancipation”?


Hyesu: I know that there were various practices in Maebashi, but for example, there was a day when the museum, on its closed days, allowed “hikikomori” (who are socially withdrawn) to freely spend time there and have conversations.

Fumihiko: Yes, I have also been involved in art projects such as workshops with organizations that support single mothers. I believe that the people who go to art museums are a limited and very small portion of society. I think this idea is influenced by my 20 years of experience as a frequent visitor to Asia, where I have seen the process of building art museums and art infrastructures.
The museum visitor base is thickening as the middle class grows, not just a few enthusiasts, tourists, and the wealthy. However, contemporary art is not something that has been enjoyed for a long time like traditional or traditional arts, and only a limited number of people enjoy it. It is exactly the same in Japan.

This is not limited to Asia maybe. Even in Europe and the U.S., art museums exist for a certain class of people, and I think there are barriers to accessibility. For sure, the social hierarchy is influenced by whether or not people can afford to live, whether or not they had experiences with art as a child, and so on. It's harder to feel when there are so many museums, but obviously, when you go to regions where there are still so few, it makes you think about it.

But that doesn't mean that I think everyone should go there. But in my experience of going back to Japan and reflecting on Japanese society, I have been thinking about how to make art museums more accessible in Japan.

For example, I think the admission fee to art museums has doubled in the last 10 years or so.

Hyesu: Is it at a museum in Japan?

Fumihiko: I think it is mainly in Tokyo. However, I don't think there is much discussion about it. I think this is a pretty big deal in terms of accessibility. I wonder if this is really the right thing to do.

What I mean by this is that the government is applying the concept of beneficiary's burden to museum admission fees. In other words, they thought people who want to be familiar with culture and art bear the burden. The idea is that people of affluence have money, so why not just pay the high price and enjoy it.

But I want to resist that. Even if they did not necessarily have the experience of being exposed to art as children, or even if they cannot afford to be exposed to art now, I believe that there is something to be gained by having such people be exposed to art. That is the reason I was working on a project for hikikomori kids to see the museum freely on their days off.

Hyesu: Earlier, when you mentioned that you were interested in technology and film, you hoped that these technologies might change the world for the better, or you were initially aware that they could make people unhappy. However, it seems that your current thoughts also revolve around how the world should be shaped under the influence of capitalism.
Do you believe that "art is something that can make the world a better place"?

Fumihiko: That’s a tough question,...but I think that's what I'm thinking. Of course, I don't know if art has the power to change the world, but if it becomes something that only people with certain academic training or rich people who go to art fairs, then it will not fulfill the fundamental function of art. 

I myself have been involved in biennials and other events that are closely connected to the art world and the art market. That is why I understand how it works and what is evaluated.

I am not so interested in such things anymore, but
I think it is very important for an individual to be emancipated, whether it is in literature, music, or art, rather than being evaluated by specialists.

Hyesu: I agree. The term "personal emancipation" was something I couldn't articulate, but I found it enlightening when I heard it. 

Fumihiko: Maybe emancipation is a little too strong a word. Speaking from personal experience, when I came back to Japan from Australia and went to a Japanese high school, I couldn't really find my place. I didn't really fit in. However, I was glad to have a place where I could express myself in some way, as I did with sports and art. So it is okay to have such a place, even if it is not necessarily emancipation. I think it is important to think that art exists in the world as such a place.

I had been to Belgrade in 2000, just as the war was ending. But there were people there who had been running an art center during the war, and I spent a lot of time talking with them. After listening to their experiences, I realized that there were many wars in Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries, those in power were always fighting each other for territory. I think a lot of people were killed. But it was during that period that Kant and Schiller came up with the concept of art. When I wondered why they came up with the concept of art as a more individual activity, I realized that they had to think of a society where people could live together with others who had different views and values from their own, without fighting wars or killing each other. I think we had to think of a society in which we could live together with others who have different views and values from ours. Of course, there have been wars all over the world, and in the case of Asia, I think it was religion. I think Buddhism is also wisdom to overcome conflicts.

That is why, of course, religion played such a role in Europe, but religion also often caused wars. I believe that a different concept was born in the 18th century, and that is art. I think it has something to do with the idea of “living together”. I think it is the same today. Anger tends to become hatred and self-righteousness, but I think the role of art is to convert it into creation and empathy rather than that. A great work of art, with its complex construction of extremely different perspectives and its ability to stimulate our imagination, has a role to play in changing the world.


Place

A workshop for Commons Farm Project(Sep 28, 2024) at Kinan Art Week.

Making Seeb Balls conceived by Fukuoka Masanobu with the artist Hirose Satoshi(4th from left).


Hyesu: The term “place”, which you just mentioned, seems to connect with the project related to “earth” that you’ve been working on lately. Nationality and identity are also often defined by the categories of the places we are born in, and the concept of region is ultimately based on land as a place. For instance, your Commons Farm Project prompts a reconsideration of the political nature that arises in daily life from the place we stand on.

Fumihiko:
There are several reasons why I became interested in agriculture and food. When I was working at a public museum I would often think about what was important in that community when I was working with the local people. 

As I mentioned earlier, museums bring in things from the outside that did not exist in the community. It is a bit violent. However, when I wanted to see how the things from outside and the things that existed originally could meet, and how they could meet in a good way rather than repelling each other, I thought that agriculture would be very useful in understanding the history and culture of the region, as well as the soil and the land. When you learn that people have been farming with these crops for a long time, it is very moving to see how they interact with nature and how much knowledge they have accumulated about nature.

That is a totally different type of knowledge than what I studied in school and should be respected more. Also, I wondered what conservatism is. I think there is a strong idea that when you try to preserve things that have been around for a long time, contemporary art is a negotiation of different things, and that is where the value is born, but that is the opposite of conservatism.

But I think museums should be conservative because they preserve things. When I thought about what conservatism means, I realized that agriculture and food are conservative fields for thinking about preserving things that we have cherished for a long time.

Eventually, I met an artist named Asako Iwama, and we organized an exhibition called Foodscape. She was thinking about feminism and food. She was in charge of the kitchen at a very famous artist's studio in Berlin, and she met with me to talk about what it meant for an Asian woman to be in charge of the kitchen. That conversation was very significant for the exhibition. An exhibition is a place where people can see something and learn that different people have different feelings and perspectives.

At that time, I thought it was very important to be able to talk about feminism and other political interpretations, such as the one you felt, through food and agriculture. 

My research was never complete at the exhibition, and I had a lot of issues to think about afterward. So I have been doing that for a while. I think that's why I am currently working on an art project with farmers in Wakayama Prefecture.
Hyesu, you also did a food exhibition. I would love to hear about that. Why did you decide to make food the theme of the exhibition?


 

Sumitomo Fumihiko

Sumitomo Fumihiko is a curator/professor at the Graduate School of Global Arts, Tokyo University of the Arts. Director of Arts Maebashi from 2013 to 2021, where he curated Listening: Resonant Worlds (2020), The Ecology of Expression - Remaking Our Relations with the World (2019) and Foodscape: We Are What We Eat (2016). He curated Post Nature: Dear Nature (Ulsan Art Museum, 2022), Demarcation: Akira Takayama / Meiro Koizumi (Maison Hermès Le Forum, 2015), Aichi Triennale 2013, Media City Seoul 2010, and Beautiful New World: Contemporary Visual Culture from Japan (798 Dashanzi Art District / Guangdong Museum of Art, 2007). As a senior curator at Museum of Contemporary Art, Tokyo (MOT), he curated the exhibition Tadashi Kawamata: Walkway (2008). He also curated the exhibitions Art Meets Media: Adventure in Perception (2005) and Possible Futures: Japanese Postwar Art and Technology (2005) at NTT InterCommunication Center (ICC) in Tokyo. He is co-editor of From Postwar to Postmodern, Art in Japan 1945-1989: Primary Documents (Museum of Modern Art New York / Duke University Press, 2012) and a founding member of Arts Initiative Tokyo (AIT).


Cho Hyesu

Cho Hyesu is an independent curator based in South Korea and Japan. She is the founder of The Ghost Project and hosts the Witch Pot Podcast. She joyfully rides the waves at the intersection of literature and art, while also publishing writings from a feminist perspective. Her curatorial work includes Kitchen Across the Ocean: SIKGU (2023), Virtual Bodies: Absence/Presence in Media (2022), !Two Weeks Notice! (2020), The Body of Stranger (2020), HumanExhibitsExhibitsHuman (2017), and Line on Boundary MOHO(;Ambiguous) HOMO (2016), among others. She has been involved with international art events, including the Busan Biennale 2020, and has contributed as a researcher to the foundational planning of several local art festivals in South Korea. She is also active as an interpreter and translator within the Korean and Japanese art scenes. In 2024, she was featured as one of the "Special Features: New Face from the World – Young Powers 31" by Art in Culture, one of Korea's leading art magazines (February 2024 issue). Currently, she is a PhD student at the Department of Art Studies and Curatorial Practices, Graduate School of Global Arts, Tokyo University of the Arts.



 

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